As for DSCAN immunity, the whiners can suck it. People need to learn to be less risk averse. .

Irrelevant. You do not need 1 billion kills to your your brian and make a logical annalisis . As was poitned several times. With exception of FW plexes this exact behavior can be mimmicked by thigns like Stratios and a pilto with brains to disengage the cloak some 100 thousand KM before landing.

And the d-scan immunity is still FAR less powerful than a cloak ship well piloted.

And yet the huge issues people predict do not happen.

To emualte the same thing in FW the stratios /rapier/arazu etc pilot would have to keep its dscan at a range shorter than the range to the accell gate by a tiny bit... then uncloak as soon as someone starts to cross. That is something that will be made easier with eh new d-scan immunity.

But GOOOD pilots, really good pilots capable of using their brain, not peopel that think they are good pilots because they spend 10 hours per day playing, already can achieve basically the same effect with any cloak warper.

YET.. the number of stratios and alike ruining small scale pvp is what? Almost non existent.

ITT: risk-averse FW farmers and WH carebears whining about being exposed to PvP.

Again, peopel do not have a single character in this game. And 30 peopel is a HUGE fleet. If you want to show skill in small scale PVP you stay under 5 peope. Over that the FC is mroe important then the members.

This might come a shock to the likes of you, but you aren't the only playerbase in EVE.

These changes are beyond amazing.

If those fleet comps are as toxic as kiting has become in this game, good.

It's actually good, because in this forum section, having to fall back on killboard stats is the same as throwing an insult in other sections: It means that the poster knows he's wrong deep down and has to shore up his own confidence in some way. People with sound, logical arguments don't have to try to diminish their debate opponents by challenging their 'credentials' because their arguments are engouh to overcome opposition all by themselves.

(who knew being a member of a high school debate club would come in handy 25,000 years in the future while flying space ships? )

You and I (and others, like Rise) know the truth here: Some who are reacting negatively to the change are being reasonable and have no horse in the race, BUT, many others are just people who have invested so much (too much) time in succeeding in the game by relying on and understanding and exploitationcurrent mechanics and this change threatens to knock them off the Throne of Elite PVP (or even pve if you listen to the wormhole people crying about d-scan immunity despite the fact that covert cloaking is way worse).

It is a mistake to invest to heavily in learning the status quo to succeed in a game that has to be about change and redirection to survive. I don't like change just for change's sake, but I understand that good change is a good thing.

We can debate whether HAC resists + d-scan immunity is too much, but claiming that d-scan immunty is the end of the world and the comming of Recons Online is just the same hurf-blerf we always see what a players 'special interest' is threatened.

This is different from covert cloaking with no cloak deatcivation penalty on locking how exactly? This is the point that defeats entirley what you say, covert cloaks are WORSE than d-scan immunity.


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You do recall that is was YOU who started the ball rolling by trying to discredit people 'because killboard' right? No one is patronizing you, simply demonstrating why everythign you believe is measurably and demonstrably wrong.

I predict this will be just like the Faction Battleship rebalance thread where people claimed that the Navy raven would be useless (ended up being even more popular for the things it's used for) or the pirate ship rebalance where people claimed the Rattlesnake with it's 'super drones' would suck....which is why you see null alliance have RATTLESNAKE FLEETS now because null alliances always make fleet comps out of ships that suck lol.

I enjoyed the aftermaths of those discussions when reality proved the nay-sayers wrong (not that any of them ever admit it). I will enjoy the aftermath of this one when CCP implements this change, everything turns out fine and those of you so vocal in oppostion pretend like you never said anything

So low sec only has gates and plexes, it doesn't have moons, planets, a star and billions of kilometers of space between those things. Hell someone call CCP and tell them low sec is broken lol.

This post is an example of a person rationalizing why their comfort zone MUST exist. People do this to convince themselves that they don't need to adapt because "there is only one reasnable way anyways, so I can't adapt even if I wanted to".

D-scan immunity changes very little. It costs very little on many ships to lnclude a scan probe launcher that lets you detect ANY uncloaked ship.

If d-scan immunity is so dangerous, how then do you deal with covert cloaked ships for which not amount of combat probes will help you.

I think it was you who said that the cloaked ship has to decloak BEFORE you get in the plex, right? Well, if you have scan probes out where he can see them, nothing changes at all.

Hell, you don't even have to scan, jsut launching the probes andhainvg them out where a Combat Recon pilot can see them on d-scan would cause enough psycoligical unertainty to give you an advantage. You and others would be able to think of these things if you weren't too invested in the status quo.

There it is. Talk to someone long enough, they will reveal the unreasonable sense of entitlement fueling their anger.

CCP never promised anyone they could play this game 100% the way they want to at all times. If they did, I'd be running incursions and C6 complexes solo lol. This is the actual truth of EVE, but if you want to 'solo', you still can, just figure out new ways to do it.

The fun part of games for well adjusted people is learning and doing new things and facing challenges (the fun part for maladjusted people is 'must win all the time'). What CCP is doing is going to be fun for lots of people. i'm sorry if you're not one of them but that's on you brother.

Good thing I didn't actually say that. What I said was that if the Chicken Littles are correct and somehow Recons not being unviable somehow ruins kiting, that it's not a bad thing because kiting chokes out the little guy, and discourages people from taking fights.

So you have yet to meet an ASB Stealth bomber that could hold you long enough for something else to decloak and kill you. Got it.

As i said, I get it, you don't like it. Tough for you, if history (of CCP and Rise) is the guide, this will happen. You choice is adapt or unsub.

1st of all, no one is telling anyone to not question something. You can question all you like. In this case, your questioning isn't questioning, it's pleading a case for not adding value to combat recon ships.

Just wanted to illustrate the word In quoted. It's irratating when people use that word on a forum you have to PAY (either in plex or cash) to be able to post on. Somehow, people who use that word use it to suggest that others are blindly following CCP....while those same posters are blindly PAYING CCP MONEY.

If you don't like CCP (or specific devs like Rise) why in hell are you continuing to give them money that they can use to further screw you over in the game they make lol?

What on earth is wrong with being hunted? That's a great thing, it will let people kill the freaking faction warfare farmers for once since their d-scan bots won't detect combat recons.

So, either my current and my previous corp are some of the best players in the game... or just using a freaking scout is not as hard as you make it out to be.

Stop making lame appeals to credentials, and let your arguments stand on their own.

I took the liberty of ringing for the ISDs, since your dogged insistence on attacking me because you lack the wherewithal to attack my arguments has constituted a pretty huge derailing of the thread at this point.

That's not true. I approve of the changes being made, and I find the assertion that the sky is falling as a result of them to be laughable, wildly off base, and alarmist at best.

Talk about obtuse...

That's not alarmist, by literally every definition. That's dismissive, and rightly so, because the people wetting their pants about this are worthy of being laughed at.

There is very little reasoning going on, just a whole lot of "don't touch my niche!" and "wormholes will die!" and "How dare you make me have to use scouts!".

I have not seen one legitimate post against the changes, and that includes yours, since all you've done is cry about my killboard and my use of an alt. You've offered nothing, just pointless quibbling.

What's missing from the above is any form of actual argument against the changes, just more personal attacks against me for daring to like these changes.

And, as has been mentioned, they are ragey, whiny rants without substance, and most of them are tacitly happy with the shape they are in now as largely worthless.

And you still refuse to actually address the topic.

Like what? Nevermind that all of them are wrong, but go ahead and give me an example, if one actually exists.

I'm asking you to get on topic, cease personally attacking me (which is the first thing you did when you quoted any of my posts, for that matter) and actually address the topic with whatever theoretically legitimate arguments that you claim are already here.

And you refuse.

But somehow that makes me the troll.

Nope, will show on DSCAN when it comes through the hole.

It's also an order of magnitude's difference to what is being discussed here. Gross exaggeration does not help your case.

Gold!












(they'll just spam activate and escape your 'camp')

You do know we are a NPSI public community where we have a lot of new bros right. If they followed the FC instructions they would have not died. But meh, its a bomber worth what? 50M? Good ship to learn in.

We have fun. A lot of fun. Something most people in eve seem to miss.

Like killing an Ishtar with probes. We also lost a lot of probes, but dude we killed a *Ishtar* with probes. Priceless.

A lot has been said already, but let me stress this again:

- PvPers will love this (cause they can catch people off guard now)
- PvEers will HATE this (cause even if you know your DScan, it's not going to protect you any longer)

I would suggest the following compromise:



-> This would still give them a surprise moment when trying to catch people
->They can scan other ships while outside of 1 AU while undetected
-> PvE people can still detect the recon ships when they are very close, but they have to be even more on guard

I really hope CCP will rethink their decision to hide ships from DScan. This would seriously break the game in many places.

No, but apparently you are. NBS.

Before: Force Recon is not visible on dscan
After: Combat Recon is not visible on dscan

And 9 times out of 10 the tackler will still be an inty, because they are the only ships with even the slimmest chance of catching anything because of Local Chat. Recons aren't fast enough, that isn't changing. If you didn't use Force Recons before, you won't Combat Recons either.

Basically the main issue with this change, but not with this change alone, is the increasing altification. Please Turn from Tuskers expressed this well in her post above. Fitting combat probes is simply not viable on most combat ships, so to keep your current capability you need to bring an alt, or force one gang member to a non-combat role.

I'm afraid the pressure to roll new alts for everything is intendend business design by CCP.

I think I mentioned it earlier, but this will break the freestyle solo/micro roaming in medium plexes the way it currently exists. The workarounds to counter the recon threat are simply too laborous, and most people simply will not bother. I know I won't. This will push FW meta even more strongly to frigs, which is an unfortunate and most likely unconsidered side effect.

Another ill-considered side effect is that increased EWAR flying around also buffs the Ishtar.

However I was referring to catching bears, and nothing really changes for them.

On the other hand, combat recons will also create new tactics for system pushing fleets, so it's not all bad. Furthermore outside FW plex roaming, new combat recons offer very interesting new tools for PVP.

wow.. just wow. So many who are unwilling to adapt. To those talking about exploration sites, what is the difference here between a cloaked rapier/prot sitting on your gate, compared to a combat recon? Cloaked rapier/prot see's you coming on short range d-scan, uncloaks and waits for your to land. Or see's probes out, on the exploration site he's camping, waits till they disappear and then decloaks shortly after. You warp in and boom, recon sitting on gate, ready to blap you.

This is no different. You see local go +1, and you keep checking dscan for probes. Since, if you're running a exploration site, they will have to probe you down as well. Unless they pre-probed the site, which in that case, shouldn't the person who spent a lot of effort get a reward? If you're unwilling to make sure your site is clear, and just barge in, then who's fault is that?

If they're already in system, and a combat recon is camping the site, maybe you should.. i don't know.. warp to the site at 100km and see if someone is camping the gate? And if you're in an exploration boat, carry combat probes w/ expanded launcher! You have the bonuses right there. You can scan the site before jumping in to make sure they aren't chilling in the site. Doesn't change the fact that there might be 100 cloaked falcons/rapiers/pilgrims/arazu's in there (since this thread is full of strawman).

Also, additional tools to consider:

Killboards - look up someone who is sitting in system and you can't find them on dscan. Do they have kills/losses with combat recons? If yes, assume they're in a recon and either leave, find a new site, or grab some friends to bait and kill them.

Common sense - don't barge into every site and expect safety, do your work with what you have available

combat probes - again, if you're in an exploration ship already, running sites, before you warp into a site, drop probes and do a quick scan at your site.

Those few options will have a major affect on adapting to this "issue". You will still run into the cloaked falcon/arazu/rapier/pilgrim from time to time, but that has been ongoing for quite awhile.

To be fair, you're on grid a good while "decelerating" before locking is a possibility.

We've all seen the reverse when a hostile warps in and you're mashing lock and getting nothing but "target is invulnerable" messages back until it's "out of warp".

Something small would get out, something bigger and fit for PvP should be equipped to punch it in the face. Curse is probably the most dangerous in this scenario.



People do seem fixated on the "victim" (the person warped to) though, as if there is no possibility of there being a curse or two waiting at the warp in point to give a would be pirate the good news. These will be glorious over/under/all around bait cynos

The actual message is irrelevant, the point I was trying to get across as I'm sure you're well aware is you're on grid WELL before you can lock. As you know, you need to be down at ~1/3 speed before any action is remotely possible.

A more accurate message would be along the lines of interference from your warp. I'm going from memory and tbh the message text isn't something I care much about remembering verbatim so much as the mechanic.

You're nitpicking if that's all you've got tbh.

And as I'm sure you're aware that using 5 or 6 of your 6 mids (2 sebos, tackle, prop mod, web [perhaps 2]) leaves you pretty much tankless and will be smashed to pieces by even a T1 cruiser fit for fighting. Hell an assault frigate would probably ruin your day.

So maybe you can kill little frigs asleep at the wheel. I'm not seeing the end of days here tbh.

Thats why t3's are not allowed to go into the places i intend to be ganking people.

The only legitimate complaint point of note is medium plexes and e.

Just don't forget the cancer that is ultra easy and effort free perfect intel. It results in far less fights. If not appearing on the directional scanner is not an option, then perhaps not appearing in local chat is. And don't worry about those nullbears, everyone has intel channels and of course the d-scan. If they are proactive in gathering intel for a change, then combat recons will not be the END OF DAYS as some are saying. Don't give in to the fear mongering!

As Crosi put it, make Recon invisible on Local Chat

This^ Would be legit.

And really fits the "Recon" idea without taking on 90% of the role of the covert cloak with none of the drawbacks as immunity would.

are you going to bring solo back? I'm looking forward to it.

Are the design team actually going to roll this out on SiSi first before release, get the test results so you can actually see how broken it is before you release it to TQ? or are you just going to take a blind leap of faith and then shrug when everything goes wrong?

I hope to heavens that you choose the better option.

Good update, except for the kinetic damage bonus.

The way to deal with the FW issue is just simply not allow recons into sites.

I am happy you're standing your ground though and not giving in to FW complaints.

Bro, do you even combat probe?

So the one change recons really needed (increased ehp) gets dropped in favor of some gimmick change, meh.

I've read the last ten pages or so and It is troubling that so many people don't understand the value of the d-scan immunity change. Rise hasn't explained the reasoning for why this is a necessary change but I think I know what they are after and I support it. Its not a gimmick, and its not "broken". It will mean some significant changes in low- and null-sec which will, for once, force you to learn some new techniques.

If you have the discipline to change and adapt, making combat recons immune to d-scan will help you, too. Try to think of ways that this change will help you instead of just complaining.


O. Faeces